"systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risks

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"systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risks

Postby Fernando Negro » 11-04-2018 07:13

After having I watched, a few days ago, a video presentation concerning the launch of a "systemd-less" Debian-derived distribution (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMvyOGawNwo) I was immediately surrendered to the arguments presented by the people who criticise the uniform adoption of "systemd" by all the major GNU/Linux distributions.

But, having those arguments (that I heard) been only about the advantages of having a diversity of evolution, in the way that GNU/Linux continues to be developed, I took yesterday the opportunity to expose, in a forum of that same "systemd-less" Debian-derived distribution, what I see as a big security problem that was created by the adoption of "systemd" - having I also taken the opportunity to call people's attention to a similar problem, that was created by the recent addition of another daemon to the Debian family of distributions - called "zeitgeist" - this last one, fortunately, not one that people are now forced to install.

And, because I think that these are serious concerns that should be shared with other (Debian) GNU/Linux users, I'm then "copy-pasting" what I've written (https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1986) in that other forum to here.


Writing as a user, that has adopted GNU/Linux in order to have more security on his computer, the following are (besides the very good principles of diversity in evolution - that should also be applied to "init" systems, and other pieces of the GNU/Linux operating system - to allow us to compare which ones are the best results that better suit each particular situation) the reasons why I really don't like "systemd".


First of all,

Whenever I hear of "unification" and "uniformization" applied to human organizations or development (in situations where they are not needed, for practical reasons, and don't make people's life better) I raise my guard. Because, it automatically makes me thing of the same principle applied to bigger/political organizations.

The more centralized the power of decision is, the less democratic it becomes. Since that, it makes it much harder for minority voices to be heard, and doesn't allow for different groups to follow each one their own path.

(When I speak of this happening in "bigger/political organizations", just look at the example of small Iceland, where the people easily changed their own government when they realized that it was corrupt, and compare that to the situation in the EU, where this super-state repeatedly imposes its will on whole different countries, and doesn't allow them to do things their own way.)

And, I've heard part of this same principle being discussed by the people who criticise the uniform adoption of "systemd" by the major GNU/Linux distributions.

But, the main problem I see with the adoption of "systemd" is (not even this one - but) one that relates to security.

(Important note: The following, is something that I'm writing as a mere user, with limited knowledge of how GNU/Linux works. And, therefore, I might be wrong concerning some of the details of what I describe. But, the general principle of such concern of mine, is something that I believe to the undoubtedly true...)

And, what I mean by this is,

(From the limited knowledge I have of what the different "init" systems do - and, knowing that "systemd" is not now responsible for everything yet,)

If you want to install a piece of malware on a computer, that surveils/controls the different aspects of its operating system...

1) In a pre/non-"systemd" environment, in order to surveil/control all those same different components, you will have to build a piece of software that does that altogether, including possibly at the same time - which results in a rather complex piece of software whose (complex - and, therefore big) activity might be spotted by the operating system or its user.

2) While, on the other hand, if you already have a daemon running, that controls all those same different aspects/components of the operating system, if you want to install a surveilling/controlling malware, all that you have to do is "stick" to that same daemon. That is, if you want to surveil/control the different aspects/components of the operating system altogether, there's no need to go any further than infecting (or remain connected to) one single daemon. Which,

a) not only reduces greatly the complexity of such malware - and, by that,

I) reduces greatly the probability of it being spotted, from its reduced size and activity, or

II) makes it possible for it to operate within certain limits/restrictions - like those of a small chip implanted on your hardware (ex: https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intel) - but also

b) serves as a perfect hiding place and, above all, *cover* (that couldn't be used before the existence of "systemd") for the activity of such piece of malware - because, if a knowledgeable user notices something odd and asks "What is this active program that is surveilling and controlling all these different aspects of my computer?" his/her reaction now will be "Oh, that's just 'systemd'...".


It's a similar security risk as the one created by the "zeitgeist" daemon, whose development is sponsored by Canonical...

If you have a daemon that already keeps a log of all of the user's most important activity,

You don't even need to have a piece of malware installed on the computer, all the time, to know what the user is up to.

All that you need now, is to somehow read that same log, whenever you can - like, when a user decides to try out one of the many proprietary programs that Ubuntu encourages people to, on its "Software Centre" (and, more specifically, one that behaves like this: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/07/08/2 ... ox-profile) - and there goes a whole log of the user's activity into the hands of Big Brother.
Signed,

A longtime Ubuntu user, that has migrated to Debian.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 11-04-2018 08:48

Yes, yes, more code == more bugs, this is nothing new :roll:

@Admin, please append this thread to the locked systemd "discussion", we don't need any more of this.

@OP, if you don't like systemd then don't use it, there are several high-quality operating systems available that do not use it.
Code: Select all
Puffy:~$ uname -a
OpenBSD Puffy.lan 6.3 GENERIC.MP#173 amd64
Puffy:~$

^ I can recommend that one :)
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby Fernando Negro » 11-04-2018 09:06

Head_on_a_Stick,

The point I'm raising has nothing to do with "bugs"...

It's a whole separate discussion, about another problem that "systemd" and another daemon create.

A problem that I think that most people are not even aware of (or have ever thought about).

And, a problem that, because of its seriousness, I really don't think the discussion of which should be "locked" or hidden.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby Fernando Negro » 11-04-2018 10:30

Nevertheless,

I now realize that I have made the post in the wrong section.

This type of post/thread should be in the "General Discussion" or "Debian Development" sub-forums instead.

(So, if a moderator could move it...)

I really think that these are most serious and pertinent issues, in relation to security, that everyone (be it users or developers) should be aware of - or really think about.
Signed,

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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby Wheelerof4te » 11-04-2018 10:54

^If systemd is such a big problem for you, why are you using Debian? Debian devs have decided to ship systemd as default init/service software in Jessie. It's been 3+ years now. While heading to Buster, it's impossible to revert that decision.
Along with OpenBSD and other BSDs, you have several non-systemd distros such as MX Linux. Maybe try those?
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby n_hologram » 11-04-2018 11:09

I've always found the zeitgeist daemon pretty disrespectful to Marxism.

I personally use what_is_to_be_done.sh to encrypt my logfiles into Marxist rhetoric, and trotsky.sh to decrypt them later if needed.

Communist puns aside, I find your points reasonable. I personally refrain from the daemon for similar reasons, along with it being fundamentally superfluous to me. I think it's another example of a program that would be desirable from a business distribution's standpoint (RHEL), for the same reasons why Intel's ME was pitched (greater sysadmin maintenance on company laptops), but doesn't translate well to the consumer side of things. However, it's also important to note that if someone has access to your logfiles, you probably have bigger problems to worry about than the logging program, malware or not.

I liked this comment in the slashdot post you shared:
If they really want to watch my online activity I'm sure AT&T would bend over backwards to assist them

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120220.gif
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby Fernando Negro » 11-04-2018 11:46

Wheelerof4te wrote:^If systemd is such a big problem for you, why are you using Debian? Debian devs have decided to ship systemd as default init/service software in Jessie. It's been 3+ years now. While heading to Buster, it's impossible to revert that decision.
Along with OpenBSD and other BSDs, you have several non-systemd distros such as MX Linux. Maybe try those?

Hello, Wheelerof4te.

The reason why I have been using Debian for the past years, is because I had never reflected much about of the whole "systemd" polemic (that I already knew that existed).

But, having I decided to watch the video presentation I mention, where one of the creators of Devuan explains the reasons why many people decided to make a fork, I then reflected about this whole issue - and, now think I've become aware of a most serious problem related to this recent evolution.

I have, in the past days, tried to install Devuan on my computer - but, like with Debian 8 Jessie, I cannot make my graphics card work well on it. And, besides this, I have noticed a big problem with the Devuan distribution itself, in relation to the repositories it uses: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1984

So, for the time being, I will continue using the lesser of two evils (Debian) until a better (and stable) alternative appears.

(And, trying to remain as short as possible about a side issue,)

"antiX" and related distros - like "MX Linux" - don't generate any trust in me. Since that, being a former political activist myself (also of the "anticapitalista" family) I know that a lot of organizations that claim to be "anti" are actually traps put out by the establishment itself. So, I always proceed with caution now, whenever I know of a new one. And, the naming of the versions of "antiX" in itself, is already a big "red flag" to me. (Long story...)

(But, speaking about the reason why I have made this post,)

The reason I did it, is because I believe that this is something that most probably no one has ever thought about. And, for that reason, something that I really think I should call people's attention to, in order to possibly make them reconsider using this kind of daemons.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby Fernando Negro » 11-04-2018 12:28

n_hologram wrote:I've always found the zeitgeist daemon pretty disrespectful to Marxism.

I personally use what_is_to_be_done.sh to encrypt my logfiles into Marxist rhetoric, and trotsky.sh to decrypt them later if needed.

Communist puns aside, I find your points reasonable. I personally refrain from the daemon for similar reasons, along with it being fundamentally superfluous to me. I think it's another example of a program that would be desirable from a business distribution's standpoint (RHEL), for the same reasons why Intel's ME was pitched (greater sysadmin maintenance on company laptops), but doesn't translate well to the consumer side of things. However, it's also important to note that if someone has access to your logfiles, you probably have bigger problems to worry about than the logging program, malware or not.

I liked this comment in the slashdot post you shared:
If they really want to watch my online activity I'm sure AT&T would bend over backwards to assist them

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120220.gif

Hello, n_hologram.

(I will keep this first part of my comment as short as possible, in order not to divert from the original issue. But, because I see part of your comment as you implying that I'm a sort of "left-winger" - which I am not - I feel forced to reply to that part,)

When I talk about the same decentralization principle applied to "bigger/political organizations", it has nothing to do with "left-wing" or "right-wing" political views. But - as I say - about Democracy.

(Marxist ideology has, throughout History, given form to the most anti-democratic, centralized, and absolutist type of governments there are. And, the debate about centralization vs decentralization, can be made on both sides of the conventional political spectrum. One of the best critiques that can be made to the European super-state even, is to draw the huge parallels between the unelected European Commission and the Soviet Politburo - ex: https://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/m ... orship.htm)

Now, going to the subject in question,

Yes, that's what I think also. This type of daemons is - not only unnecessary (or "superfluous" as you say) - but, like Intel's ME or AMD's PSP, a big security risk, whose only "positive" aspect can be to allow an outside administrating entity to better control your computer. This being the reason why I really don't like any of the mentioned evolutions.

(Like I said in another forum, about AMD's PSP - https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/p ... ost1000053 - computers worked fine before the addition of this type of controlling components.)

And, yes. I'm aware that, when working with a computer connected to the Internet, there are all sorts of security and privacy risks. But, what I also think is that (even if just for a question of principle) we should always try to minimize them.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby n_hologram » 11-04-2018 12:40

Fernando Negro wrote:I see part of your comment as you implying that I'm a sort of "left-winger"...

Lol no, I was just making a pun. Sorry if it appeared as a political jab.
This type of daemons is - not only unnecessary (or "superfluous" as you say) - but, like Intel's ME or AMD's PSP, a big security risk, whose only "positive" aspect can be to allow an outside administrating entity to better control your computer...And, yes. I'm aware that, when working with a computer connected to the Internet, there are all sorts of security and privacy risks. But, what I also think is that (even if just for a question of principle) we should always try to minimize them.

I think we can both agree on that.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby steve_v » 11-04-2018 13:38

Wheelerof4te wrote:Debian devs have decided to ship systemd as default init/service software in Jessie.
Systemd as the default init is fine. Systemd as the only viable init is not. As nobody can be bothered maintaining the parts required to run post-jessie Debian with anything but systemd as init, we are now effectively at only.

Wheelerof4te wrote:While heading to Buster, it's impossible to revert that decision.
Shenanigans. It's not impossible, it's just rather difficult as buster is already in testing.
It's significantly less difficult to untangle the systemd dependencies in unstable so future releases offer a real choice. SysV has been removed, but OpenRC is in the unstable repos: Cool. World+dog is compiled against systemd, and the OS won't run properly without it: Very uncool.

On the "centralised control" bit, I don't care about this political angle that's creeping in, but any kind of "master program" that does as much as systemd does is simply not how you Unix. It's overengineered, fragile, and difficult to work with. It's also a great big SPOF.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby stevepusser » 11-04-2018 18:43

"antiX" and related distros - like "MX Linux" - don't generate any trust in me. Since that, being a former political activist myself (also of the "anticapitalista" family) I know that a lot of organizations that claim to be "anti" are actually traps put out by the establishment itself. So, I always proceed with caution now, whenever I know of a new one. And, the naming of the versions of "antiX" in itself, is already a big "red flag" to me. (Long story...)


So, speaking as the lead packager of MX Linux, what on earth would we have to do to get any trust from you? Our repository and sources are open to all, the MX applications are developed openly on github, and anyone can join the development team, if only as beta testers.

But of course, you can't use logic to argue with a conspiracy theorist---that's only more evidence of the vast conspiracy. :lol:

Steve (still waiting for those checks from "Big Linux" to start rolling in)
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby stevepusser » 11-04-2018 18:58

whoops double post :oops:
Last edited by stevepusser on 11-04-2018 20:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby n_hologram » 11-04-2018 19:06

stevepusser wrote:So, speaking as the lead packager of MX Linux, what on earth would we have to do to get any trust from you

I mean, your avatar IS of a notorious evil scientist...
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby bw123 » 11-04-2018 19:20

stevepusser wrote:
But of course, you can't use logic to argue with a conspiracy theorist---that's only more evidence of the vast conspiracy. :lol:


Yeah, I noticed the history lesson on Marx came from prisonplanet also. This sentence shows what a limited understanding the OP has.

Fernando Negro wrote:Marxist ideology has, throughout History, given form to the most anti-democratic, centralized, and absolutist type of governments there are.


The above quote is a ridiculous statement, when you consider that Marx wasn't even born until the early 19th century.

I won't even try to contribute to the topic, whatever it is.
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Re: "systemd" and "zeitgeist" daemons as great security risk

Postby stevepusser » 11-04-2018 20:06

n_hologram wrote:
stevepusser wrote:So, speaking as the lead packager of MX Linux, what on earth would we have to do to get any trust from you

I mean, your avatar IS of a notorious evil scientist...


Balderdash and folderol!! Farnsworth works only for the benefit of mankind! Plus all the other alien species! He brings only good news to everyone!
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